OK- I have to ask you all a question... when was the last time you read the Cardigan standard? Do you know what the recommended/suggested size of the ideal Cardigan is?
Next question... Do you think that the majority of the Cardigans being shown/bred today are within that size bracket?
Now- I assure you I am not on a witch hunt- and I have always been of the "balance is more important than absolute size" mind set- but- I am getting concerned about the size of some of the Cardigans I am seeing in the rings- and the comments I am hearing, both from exhibitors and breeders- and judges!
To quote our standard: "Ideally, dogs should be from 30 to 38 pounds; bitches from 25 to 34 pounds. Lack of overall balance, oversized or undersized are serious faults."
Think about the male dogs in your house, or the male Specials you have seen out in the last year. What do you think they weigh? What about the bitches?
Imagine what would happen if you took a 30 pound adult dog in the ring? Have you shown a 25 pound bitch?
The fact is, you will be far more successful with an OVERSIZED dog or bitch, then you will be with a correct sized Cardigan. I find that disturbing.
What I found even more disturbing is that I am catching myself looking at my own dogs and wondering... is he going to be big enough? Is she too small? I look at 38 pound dogs as being on the "moderate" size- when, in reality, they are at the top end of the standard. Where I used to say my "Big Boy", Nicky, was as big as I would ever want to have in my house- I realized at the Nationals that he was just average in size.
Size DOES Matter people! The Cardigan is NOT a Large Breed Dog with short legs. Our breed is "a handsome, powerful, small dog." We need to keep that in mind when making our breeding decisions. We need to remember that when choosing which dogs to show.
Bigger is not better- nor is it correct. Bigger may be more impressive to Group judges- but if the judge knows the breed, and is worthy of your respect, he or she should be able to find that correct, balanced, and sound dog of the proper size.
If the breeders don't make the effort to show the dogs of the proper size, how are the judges ever going to learn?
Next time you are evaluating that litter of puppies, please fight the urge to keep the biggest puppy in the litter; think moderate!
Very well said, Kathy, and a great reminder for all of us that our eye should be governed by the STANDARD!
ReplyDeleteMy special is 32 pounds, he looked like a 6 month old puppy next to the others. It is sad. I've now got a couple of boys who are 36 pounds and they are big boned and definitely are a lot of dog. There was a dog that showed here for a while that was 55 pounds... it wasn't a good thing.
ReplyDeleteGreat post Kathy!
ReplyDeleteI DID show (and still am showing) a 26 pound bitch! She has to be in open, as she is Canadian bred, and she looks like a tiny puppy in the open class. Needless to say 10 of her 12 points so far were won out of the 6-9 class as she wasn't smallish then. She is within standard, and moderate bone. I think people get too set on HEAVY bone and big dogs.
Did you remember the tri male I showed at WR last year? He was in the 9-12 puppy and was dwarfed by the 6-9 boys! I guess the lines I work with are slower maturing and slower growing which is fine with me!
My 5 year old male is 35 pounds. He seems average or small when I see other mature boys. All my girls are 30-32 pounds and they all seem small to me, until I see my 26 pound bitch who is almost 3 :)
I think if breeders keep looking for more bone and bigger/faster growing puppies we may be sorry we have upright earred Basset hounds :)
I finished Clue out of Open with four majors (three of them from Open) in a total of four or five weekends, and she's 27 lb at show weight. But she looked TINY in the ring. Sometimes half the size of the other bitches.
ReplyDeleteLooking at the difference between the way she can move, and the way she recovered from injury, and the way my 33-lb bitch (who would be considered "moderate" by many) can move and recover, there's no question which is a sounder or more sustainable body.
I decided on Cardis because of the stated size in the standard, and breed books, and was SHOCKED when I actually got into the breed, to learn that 10-15 pounds over the standard was norm.
ReplyDeleteI hope we can go back to correct size, rather than extremes. I'm also seeing a lot of HUGE dogs, who're so low their chests hit the ground. I can't imagine how terrible it would feel to carry a huge barrel chest, on teeny, stumpy legs. Cardigans are a herding breed, a working breed, and suppose to be an active, drivey breed able to drive cattle as long as needed. Breeders really should consider this when breeding any litter.
We're not a toy breed, only bred for looks, and 'companionship'... and even those dogs should be bred for soundness, over physical extremes.
It doesn't help when one of the top stud dogs in the breed right now (who shall remain nameless) is too heavy, too low, can't get out of his own way, and is producing more of the same because that's what's currently winning in the show ring.
ReplyDeleteI'm showing a 26-pound bitch out of the Open class, since: a) I didn't breed her; b)she's over 18 months old; and c) if you show in Am Bred no one takes the entry seriously.
Of course she has her faults, but she's balanced and not a bad little bitch overall. But I truly believe that judges are looking at her size on the initial scan of the class, and they never really even look at her afterward.
Case in point was this past weekend. Elli was in the Open class with her littermate, who is much larger than she is. Other than size, I think the two are pretty comparable, but Elli's sister won each day. The Sunday judge was the only one who went over each entry very thoroughly, and she awarded Elli Reserve. The other judges just gave her a cursory glance.
My hope is that judge's education will focus on this issue so we can get back to the more moderately (and correctly!) sized exhibits. I'm definitely not interested in a prick-eared Basset Hound.
I think it is easier to succeed in the classes with a smaller bitch, if you are persistent. But specialling a smaller bitch is a whole 'nuther game. I have finished 2 25-27 lb bitches, one from Bred by and one from age classes because I didn't breed her. Both were red, too, which adds a whole new demension to it. But competing in BOB hasn't been as easy. Lucy has 2 AOMs, one from her first National, and one from Three Trails, but on an average weekend, she will easily get beaten by some giant male. It is disheartening, to say the least!
ReplyDeleteI have dogs on both ends of the spectrum. A very nice structurally well built special who looks small at 36 lbs and his uncle who is just as nice but at 45 lbs looks normal in the breed ring. The big guy isn't shown just for that reason, he's too big and everyone that meets him is told that right away.
ReplyDeleteSomeone wise and very knowledgeable in the breed told me this a couple of years ago. Those of us who are showing dogs within the standard yet getting bet by the "big" guys just need to keep plugging along. We might not win now but if we keep producing dogs within the standard and making every attempt to not produce oversized or undersized, then we will be the "norm" once again the future.
Another thing to think about is the judges. If we continually expose them to dogs that are too big, don't they just then expect the big dogs to be the norm? Judges tend to develop preferences based upon the types and styles of dogs that they "grew" up around or showed around prior to getting their license. So unless dogs within and in all ranges of the accepted standard are shown, how does a judge just eyeball correct weight? size?
Bravo, Kathy! This is something that has been eating at us for the last few years, and we are still newbies! I read the standard, and think this is what our dogs are supposed to be. Our male special is 36-37 lbs at show weight. When we go to Nationals, he looks so small, and he's almost 5? Then we've also had a judge ask if we needed a ramp for our special, as he was a big boy? Excuse me? I really hope he was kidding.
ReplyDeleteOur b&w bitch we finished last spring is 26 lbs, and we did end up showing her in AM Bred, just so she would get looked at, and that's what she finished out of. The judges that liked her said she was "so feminine and good proportions, and so well trained." Would they look at her in a sea of bigger opens? We had tried that and they didn't find her very often. It's truly sad...and yes, we vote for more Judges' Education on this topic, please!
Hughie, of course, was not a show dog. When he was playing flyball, he was a muscular 39 pounds. (After retiring, but before going on a diet he topped out at 41.) A dog that heavy with legs that short should not have been jumping. He paid dearly for it.
ReplyDeleteOur dogs are supposed to be able to work. My 33-pound, 2.5-year-old Radar is plenty big enough to herd sheep (and cattle on the other side of the fence).
Cardigan proportions on 40-pound dogs are not suitable for working.
In response- first- THANK YOU for all the positive comments on my blog post; I did recieve some private emails that were not positve. I guess Perception changes everyting!
ReplyDeleteI also wanted to share with my readers what prompted this post.
I showed my 6 month old male puppy, Morgan, at an all-breed show recently (the weekend after the Nationals, as a matter of fact), where he was awarded WD/BOW/BOS over 2 male specials. (One of the male specials being a dog that I bred- so this was a bitter-sweet win...to say the least) After judging, a spectator, who happens to also be approved to judge our breed, commented to me that Morgan was a very nice dog- but "its a shame that he isn't going to be big enough to make it as a Special!"
GASP!!! WHAT?!? After assuring this person that I wasn't concerned, and walking away, I started to think about the size thing.
Admittedly, compared to the two specials in the ring, Morgan was much smaller. The one special (the one I bred) is on the very top of the standard- and probably over the standard by a bit. The other special is right up there with him. At the time, Morgan probably weighed around 26 pounds and stood about 10"-- but I considered him a good weight and size for a 6 month old male Cardi!
The more I thought, after that weekend, the more concerned I got. What, then, are the rest of the judges thinking when they see "correct" sized Cardigans, vs oversized Cardigans in the puppy classes? Morgan and his brother, Will Smith Jacob, were, in fact, among the smallest puppies in the 6-9 sweepstakes class at the National. ARE they really TOO small?
S0 being the compulsive (yes, anal retentive) record keeper, I pulled out past dogs records...
George- who in show weight was 37 pounds; weighed 35 pounds at 7 months, but looking at show photos, he was grossly obese. Not a good comparison there!
Nicky- Tipped the scales at 44 lbs in show weight. I have always said that Nicky is the absolute largest dog I would ever want to own- in Cardigans- and too big for our breed. Yes- he is balanced- and Thank Heavens he doesn't always produce that size-- but he's a BIG BOY!! I didn't own him as a puppy, so had no records on his weight as a youngster; at 11 1/2 he is a trim 40 lbs. (for health reasons, we keep him thinner.)
Chase, the 15 year old we lost a couple of weeks ago, was 38 lbs when he was being shown; 35 lbs when he crossed the Bridge, and 30 lbs at 7 months.
On to the girls...
Sera is a big girl- as big as I would ever want in a bitch. She is currently 34 lbs, and ideally should be 32 lbs. (she has really enjoyed her bon bon's and retirement a bit too much)At 6 months, she was 27 lbs.
Jitterbug, who I have always thought of as "small" is suprisingly right where she should be- she currently weighs 28 lbs and stands 10.5 inches. At 6 months she was only 22 lbs- her nickname was tiny-mite!
And Morgan- on his 7 month birthday stands 11 inches and is 29.5 pounds. He is a tad thin- he is perpetual motion so is hard to keep weight on- so he could stand to gain a pound... I anticipate his adult weight will probably be about the same size as his father- 37 pounds or so.
And that is right where a male Cardigan should be, don't you think?
I have always seemed to have and show smaller males, for some reason, so yes the size issue has been slapped in my face more than once. Of the 3 males I've shown, they have all been between 30-34 pounds, and I was told several different times that each was "small". My current boy Nash is...(runs and hops on scale with dog...)...30 pounds at not quite a year. He will be on the smaller side for sure but I expect him to fill out to 33-34 pounds as he still looks pretty immature. His mother is 31-32 pounds and I was told at the nationals that she's small...granted, she was completely naked. :P
ReplyDeleteThe truth is that even my OWN eye has become used to the larger dogs in the ring. I have to continually remind myself that even if bigger wins, that's not where I want to go. I like my moderate dogs, who after I finish their CH I can easily decide to pursue an agility or other performance career with.
Jeri; Thats just IT-- I think we are all getting so used to seeing 38 to mid-40 pound males and 30 to high-30 pound females that we look at dog at the lower end of the correct size and think they are "too small" or at the least- small.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't think that your bitch, at 31-32 pounds, is small!
Our standard allows for a 8-9 pound size variance; wouldn't you think that breeders should be able to breed within that size range, and still maintain type, structure, soundness?
We shouldn't need to have 40+ or 50 pound dogs being shown--
Yet, they are out there!
I am far from an expert in breed conformation, but many of the dogs are too big for performance (and often too low to the grouns) -and would have trouble doing what they were intended to do. I have also seen big = overweight/not well conditioned in some dogs that are being put up.
ReplyDeleteGreat post Kathy!
ReplyDeletePriscilla is on the high end of the bitch standard and right now is at her pre-mommy weight, 34-35 pounds (Vet said she is perfect condition). She COULD lose another pound or 2 for agility I think and we are trying to do that. She was bred to a "small" male and her puppies were a decent size.
Iggy Pop is built for performance but his faults aside he is 30 pounds and when I was showing him he was dwarfed by the other boys.
Its been awhile since I have been active in the conformation ring and I agree we are all getting used to large cardigans. Bigger is not better. Pretty soon we will have German Shepherds at the ends of our leads. ;o)
~Heather~